Energy: fusion H->Fe & the splitting of Fe->H for

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Energy: fusion H->Fe & the splitting of Fe->H for

文章 每天update » 週五 28 2月, 2014 09:22

 The energy of fusion: H->Fe and the energy for the splitting of Fe->H for black holes
 
 link: NuSTAR telescope takes first peek into core of supernova
 [url]http://phys.org/news/2014-02-nustar-tel ... rnova.html[/url]
 
 原創 composed by 每天update
 2014.2.28 hkastroforum.net
 
 In the picture the core of the star is iron. When some stars composed with similar materials (Fe) are to collapse into black holes, the gravity and pressure near (inside and outside) event horizon are large. I guess that those materials falling into black hole are only protons, neutrons and electrons ? I speculate those Fe, Ni and all heavy elements are no longer existed under the pressure and gravity ? My conjecture is that splitting of heavier atoms might take place, heavy elements e.g. iron changing back to hydrogen ? Some processes similar to fission to change Fe -> H, it is not exactly fission. The idea is near. Fe(56) is the most stable atom among other natural elements. For elements with atomic number much much larger than Fe fission takes place spontaneously or by the addition of extra neutrons to those nuclei. To say fission of Fe (toward hydrogen) is not very clear. The splitting of Fe, Ni . . . etc to H are supposedly endothermic, I speculate that no particle is heavier than hydrogen (e.g. neutron stars) when they are near black holes ?
 
 A (large) sphere/cloud of hydrogen generates energy with fusion, from H to Fe, through the elements of Helium, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, subsequently Si, . . . etc, Ni and Fe. Those energy had radiated into space long ago. When the same sphere/star collapses into a black hole, it is easily to guess that they require to absorb energy for splitting these elements back to H, from Fe and other heavy elements to H. And when mass accelerates towards singularity (probably moving along a circular path e.g. spirally inward/an accretion disc) at relativistic speed, nearly some fractions of light speed, that absorbs energy too. Where those energy come from ?
 
 That is, H -> Fe + energy(1), and energy(1) radiated away long ago,
 then, Fe + energy(2) -> H, where the energy(2) comes from ?
 and mass at speed 0 + energy(3) -> mass moving near speed of light,
 I speculate when v=sqroot(3)/2 of c the double the mass.
 Does the energy come from the potential energy between the space of atoms ?
 
Picture, core of star,
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ls.svg.png
 
 (Picture Credit: wikipedia.org)
 

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文章 鄧登凳 » 週五 28 2月, 2014 12:02

I am not sure what the basis of your speculation is.

Massive stars but with inadequate mass to form black holes form neutron stars when they collapse. The process is that, under tremendous gravitational force, electrons and protons combined to form neutrons. In such a case, chemical elements (or nuclei of atoms, which must have protons) cannot exist. Without any nucleus of atom, no fission can occur.

Black holes have greater gravitation force than neutron stars. It is speculated that even neutrons will break down into quarks or even more fundamental particles. Of course, if the current understanding is correct, there is no such thing as nuclear reaction (fusion or fission) in black holes.

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文章 PTS » 週五 28 2月, 2014 16:13

鄧登凳 寫:I am not sure what the basis of your speculation is.

Massive stars but with inadequate mass to form black holes form neutron stars when they collapse. The process is that, under tremendous gravitational force, electrons and protons combined to form neutrons. In such a case, chemical elements (or nuclei of atoms, which must have protons) cannot exist. Without any nucleus of atom, no fission can occur.

Black holes have greater gravitation force than neutron stars. It is speculated that even neutrons will break down into quarks or even more fundamental particles. Of course, if the current understanding is correct, there is no such thing as nuclear reaction (fusion or fission) in black holes.
There is no need for a massive star to form a neutron star BEFORE going into the blackhole stage.

pts

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文章 鄧登凳 » 週五 28 2月, 2014 17:10

PTS 寫: There is no need for a massive star to form a neutron star BEFORE going into the blackhole stage.

pts
Yes, I agree.

I should say it more clearly or directly: Even for a lower gravitational field, such as one in a neutron star, protons and electrons cease to exist as they have combined to form neutrons. So for the stronger gravitational field at/beyond the event horizon of a black hole, definitely atoms (there must be protons to form atoms) are highly unlikely to exist. Without atoms and nuclei, there is no nuclear fission!

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文章 每天update » 週六 01 3月, 2014 15:50

鄧登凳 寫:I am not sure what the basis of your speculation is.
The process is that, under tremendous gravitational force, electrons and protons combined to form neutrons.
To form neutrons, these electrons and protons are origin from the materials of the previous star. Probably there are large amount of iron and other heavy elements such as Si or oxygen . . . etc inside the core of the original star. It is realised that neutron stars and black holes contain no material or element heavier than hydrogen.

The question is: those heavy elements in the original star were created by fusions of hydrogen, where H -> He . . . carbon, N, O, subsequently they were fusion to Si and Fe. During these fusions neutrinos were produced too, and energy released and radiated away. Therefore, the reversal of these processes, to convert heavy elements (Fe) back to H, it should absorb energy (and it must absorb energy because the same amount of hydrogen can release energy again if some "next round" of fusion take place again). Express the idea in simple equations:
H -> He, C, . . . Si, Fe + neutrinos with releasing of energy(1) and radiated away long ago,
It is realised that neutron stars and black holes contain no element heavier than hydrogen, therefore, for the formation of neutron star or black hole, to split the heavy elements back to H, it has to supply same amount of energy(2) for the splitting of these heavy elements, where energy(2) = energy(1).

The questions are: where the energy(2) comes from ? Does energy(2) come from the potential energy between space of those atoms ?
It is speculated that even neutrons will break down into quarks or even more fundamental particles.
It is possible some portions of the composition of black holes are quarks or other fundamental particles.

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文章 每天update » 週六 01 3月, 2014 15:58

PTS 寫: There is no need for a massive star to form a neutron star BEFORE going into the blackhole stage.

pts
鄧登凳 寫: such as one in a neutron star, protons and electrons cease to exist as they have combined to form neutrons
In such a case, chemical elements (or nuclei of atoms, which must have protons) cannot exist. Without any nucleus of atom, no fission can occur.
So a simplest atom contains one proton only which undergoes no fission. But what processes take place for the splitting of Fe to the said situation (Quote, "In such a case, chemical elements (or nuclei of atoms, which must have protons) cannot exist.") ?
Rather, what importance is that it has to input energy for the splitting of Fe to protons, e- and neutrons.

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文章 鄧登凳 » 週六 01 3月, 2014 16:19

每天update 寫:

So a simplest atom contains one proton only which undergoes no fission. But what processes take place for the splitting of Fe to the said situation (Quote, "In such a case, chemical elements (or nuclei of atoms, which must have protons) cannot exist.") ?
Rather, what importance is that it has to input energy for the splitting of Fe to protons, e- and neutrons.
There is no need to "split" the atom/nucleus of iron. Protons, neutrons and electrons exist in iron atoms all the time. Once protons and electrons recombined under strong gravitational field, atoms/nuclei do NOT exist. Such processes recombinating protons and electrons can occur inside an iron atom or it can occur in a hot particles "soup".

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文章 每天update » 週三 05 3月, 2014 01:00

There is no need to "split" the atom/nucleus of iron. Protons, neutrons and electrons exist in iron atoms all the time.
In the core of stars most iron nuclei are highly ionized. Probably iron nuclei are orbited by few electrons only.
Once protons and electrons recombined under strong gravitational field, atoms/nuclei do NOT exist. Such processes recombinating protons and electrons can occur inside an iron atom or it can occur in a hot particles "soup".
At time t1, there is an iron atom(in the core of a star), suppose the average distance between those mixed protons and neutrons is r1, and suppose the (average) distance between every iron atom is r2.

At time t2, this star "changed" to a neutron star completely. Iron atom doesn't exist any more. The distance between each neutron is r3.

For the same amount/mass of iron atoms begins at time t1. With the same mass/"amount", at time t2 the photon soup "changes" them to an ocean of neutrons. To make the question less complex, ignore or omit the processes or mechanisms, want to know is the energy difference between t2 and t1. Probably it requires to input energy. Inputting energy is very possible, then where the energy comes from ?

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文章 Wah!! » 週三 05 3月, 2014 09:25

Does "ionized" mean there are no electrons flying around them?
I guess there should be enough electrons around the ionized elements, just flying FREELY. :roll: :roll: :roll:

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文章 鄧登凳 » 週三 05 3月, 2014 11:46

Wah!! 寫:Does "ionized" mean there are no electrons flying around them?
I guess there should be enough electrons around the ionized elements, just flying FREELY. :roll: :roll: :roll:
All solid metals (including iron) have their "outer" electrons in a metallic orbit. They are free "floating" and this explains why metals conduct electricity. Of course electrons are still around just that they are not localized to particular atoms.

But I don't think any electrons are "FLYING" completely free from the nuclei in a star. You have done solar images of different bands, these bands are representing electrons of various atoms "jumping" between orbitals. As far as they are in orbitals, they are NOT FREE.

In simple words, electrons stay close to nuclei in our sun and in the stars, there is no reason why suddenly they become "highly ionized".

There is also no reason to beleive that protons (i.e. hydrogen nuclei) suddenly exist in the core of a collapsing star.

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文章 每天update » 週五 07 3月, 2014 00:01

Wah!! 寫:Does "ionized" mean there are no electrons flying around them?
I guess there should be enough electrons around the ionized elements, just flying FREELY. :roll: :roll: :roll:
鄧登凳 寫: All solid metals (including iron) have their "outer" electrons in a metallic orbit. They are free "floating" and this explains why metals conduct electricity. Of course electrons are still around just that they are not localized to particular atoms.
For the partially ionized gaseous iron, I think the net (overall) electric charge is zero. The amount of total negative charge equals the amount of positive charge. I think ionization is that an orbital electron gains energy that the electron can move/fly to 'infinitive' distance away an atom, then an orbit of the atom becomes empty. There is still electro-attractive force between 'ionized' iron and those free electrons.

The Sun's corona and the center of stars are at high temperature. Probably several atomic orbits of iron element may be ionized by the high energy. There are datasheets which can find the extent of the ionization(of iron) and the required energy.

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文章 鄧登凳 » 週五 07 3月, 2014 01:02

每天update 寫:

For the partially ionized gaseous iron, I think the net (overall) electric charge is zero. The amount of total negative charge equals the amount of positive charge. I think ionization is that an orbital electron gains energy that the electron can move/fly to 'infinitive' distance away an atom, then an orbit of the atom becomes empty. There is still electro-attractive force between 'ionized' iron and those free electrons.

The Sun's corona and the center of stars are at high temperature. Probably several atomic orbits of iron element may be ionized by the high energy. There are datasheets which can find the extent of the ionization(of iron) and the required energy.
1. Please show scientific evidence of the existence of bare iron nuclei (complete removal of all electrons) at the core of star (either theoretical calculation or observational data).

2. Observational data indicate the most commonly observed iron lines in stellar spectra are Fe-I and Fe-II. Fe-I represents the energy gap between neutral iron atoms and Fe+ with one +ve charge. Fe-II represents the energy gap between Fe+ and Fe2+ (doubly ionized iron atom). So the spectra show the abundance of neutral iron atom, Fe+ iron ion, and Fe2+ iron ion in stars. Given an iron atom has 26 electrons, the most common forms of iron in stellar matter have 24 to 26 electrons. There are still plenty of electrons around the atom/ion.

3. If all or most electrons of iron are very far from the iron nuclei, no combination of protons and electrons can occur. Therefore the prediction is that neutron star will never exist. This prediction is definitely wrong, suggesting the presumption (electrons are all far away) used in making the prediction is wrong.

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文章 WFPC2 » 週日 09 3月, 2014 01:04

中子星的外層是有質子和電子存在,
因為有部份中子衰變成質子和電子和反中微子,
我想中微子會以光速離開中子星,能量足夠的電子和質子
亦能脱離中子星表面的極強重力和強磁場的束縛離開中子星
,所以中子星應該會放射質子、電子和中微子

MichaelZoowl
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Energy fusion H t Fe the splitting of Fe t H for

文章 MichaelZoowl » 週四 05 7月, 2018 00:39

In articles on aneutronic fusion, the reaction Proton–lithium-7 fusion is mentioned as a possibility. Now I wonder; what is the energy of the 2 He nuclei? How much is gamma rays?

And another question; how high voltage would it take to stop those two He nuclei completely?


Proton–lithium-7 fusion1p 7Li →2 4He 17.2 MeV

Sven

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